AWS 전력조달 담당자 콜. FTAI는 2026 1Q부터 MSA 단계 진입했고, 풀 자격까지 13~18개월 소요. 스피드 강점은 '자격 통과 후' 얘기이며 스케일·투명성에 의구심.
2025 3Q 검토 시작, 2026 1Q(2월) MSA 착수. 신규 공급사라 풀 자격 13~18개월 소요, 완료 시점 2027년. 직접구매 루트 빠를 땐 6개월도 가능하나 FTAI는 신생사라 장기간.
왜 중요 · 시장의 '스피드 투 마켓' 내러티브와 달리 실제 매출 기여는 2027년 이후. 단기 모멘텀 과대평가 위험
①MSA(가격·카탈로그) ②SKU/모듈러 아키텍처·소싱 ③엔지니어링·지역 커넥티비티 ④계약·RMA·워런티·TCO ⑤실제 엔진 테스트. 엔진은 리스 가능해 상업조건(1단계)을 기술심사보다 먼저 봄
왜 중요 · FTAI 통과 여부는 컨버전 기술력보다 '계약조건 수용·스케일'이 결정. 평가 프레임 자체가 통념과 반대
FTAI 3GW/년 주장에 '매우 회의적'. 25MW 엔진 기준 100MW=엔진 4기뿐으로 직접관계 비효율. 4Q25 생산라인 증명, 1Q27 실시장 판매 입증을 기대
왜 중요 · 3GW도 다수 하이퍼스케일러·코로케이션·정수기 인티그레이터에 분산. AWS 실수령 불확실이 밸류 핵심 변수
FTAI는 공장 '사진'만 제공, 실투어·비교가능 생산데이터 미제공. 베이스라인 없는 '25% 캐파 증가' 주장. AWS·동종 하이퍼스케일러(Azure·Meta)도 지난 6개월 신규 진척 정보 못 받음
왜 중요 · 발표 6개월 경과에도 하이퍼스케일러가 실질 진전을 체감 못함. 실행 입증 지연 시 디레이팅 트리거
직접구매 기준 MW당 ASP가 레거시 OEM과 온파, 약간 높을 수도. 리스는 더 비쌈. 가격은 협상 중
왜 중요 · 가격 프리미엄 없음 = 차별화는 오직 스피드·non-China. 가격 경쟁력은 무기 아님 확인
VP는 2GW 희망하나 비현실적. 타 하이퍼스케일러와 경쟁 감안 현실 발주 약 500MW. 3GW 약속해도 5GW 주문받아 백오더 발생 전망
왜 중요 · FTAI 매출 모델링 시 AWS 단일 고객 기대치 상한선 가늠 가능
FTAI는 3~5년 유틸리티 연결 전 브릿지 전력. 스피드 위해 리스보다 직접구매(OEM 직거래) 우선. 향후 FTAI가 자체 전력시설(몬트리올·마이애미)로 PPA형 전기 인티그레이터 역할 가능성도 검토
왜 중요 · 직접소유 모델 = FTAI 일시 매출 인식 vs 리스/PPA = 리커링. 사업모델 따라 밸류에이션 배수 달라짐
담당자가 '스피드는 qualified된 후의 스피드'라 못박음. 2027년 다수 플레이어 동시 발주 시 FTAI도 롱리드타임으로 회귀 가능 — 핵심 셀링포인트의 시한부 성격
4Q25 생산라인·공장 증명, 1Q27 실시장 판매가 자격프로세스 후반 진입 신호. 이 두 분기 실제 데이터 공개 여부가 주가 향방의 카탈리스트/리스크
경쟁자 Weichai/PSI는 3MW 백업용·중국산 관세·지정학 리스크로 제한적. FTAI는 미국 생산·primary bridge 포지션이 차별점이나, 컨버전 실현 입증이 전제
담당자 마지막 코멘트: 가스가격 급등 시 fuel cell·배터리로 전환 가능성. 단 미국 fuel cell은 효율(낮은 발열·안정성)에서 가스터빈에 열위라 현재는 백업용. 한국은 primary 사용
이 콜은 FTAI 평가용. 대창솔루션과의 연결은 엔진기자재 밸류체인 차원이며 본 녹취엔 대창 직접 언급 없음 — 팀의 'MBS/엔진기자재 통합 관점' 리서치 프레임 내 참고자료 성격
팀은 2023년 6월 대창솔루션을 선박엔진 구조물 전문업체로 캐치, 원전폐기물·해상풍력·수소이송 등 다변화와 1Q23 흑전에 주목했으나, 곧 대창vs삼영 경영권분쟁·KB 유증 주관 등 복잡한 상황과 '섹시 키워드 마케팅' 가능성을 경계. 개별기업으론 아이디어 캐칭이 안 되고 MBS(대창·삼영)→엔진기자재→엔진업체 밸류체인을 통으로 봐야 한다는 결론에 도달. 이후 내수믹스 개선·단가상승은 긍정 확인했으나 시총 500억대에서 '더블 가는 각'에 대한 의구심은 지속. Pallet car 등 제철플랜트 품목으로 관심 확장.
이번 콜은 FTAI(에어로데리버티브 엔진) AI DC 전력 진출 평가로, 팀의 '엔진기자재→엔진업체 통합 관점' 리서치 확장선상의 글로벌 비교 사례
엔진 밸류체인 전반의 수요 모멘텀(DC 전력 폭증) 확인 — 팀이 MBS/엔진 통합 관점으로 봐야 한다 한 시각과 부합
'스피드=강점' 내러티브에 대한 시장 기대와 달리, 실수요·발주는 2027년 이후+스케일 입증 전제 — 스몰캡 키워드 부양 경계 시각과 유사한 '입증 전 회의론' 재확인
| AWS 검토 시작 | 2025 3Q |
| MSA(자격) 착수 | 2026 1Q(2월) |
| 풀 자격 소요 | 13~18개월 |
| 풀 자격 완료 예상 | 2027년 |
| 스케일/생산라인 증명 | 4Q25(구두) |
| 실시장 판매 입증 | 1Q27(구두) |
| 담당자 추가정보 가능시점 | 2025년 8월(구두) |
| 1단계 | MSA — 가격·카탈로그·커스터마이징 (현재 위치) |
| 2단계 | SKU/엔진사이즈·모듈러·소싱·설치 |
| 3단계 | 엔지니어 협업·지역 커넥티비티(US/EMEA/APAC) |
| 4단계 | 계약·RMA·워런티·TCO (기술심사) |
| 5단계 | 실엔진 테스트 후 QVL 등재 (기술심사) |
| FTAI 주장 연산능력 | 2~3GW/년 (2027 목표) |
| 엔진 단가 | $15~16M/유닛 |
| MW당 ASP | GE·미쓰비시 동등(직접구매) |
| 자격비용 | $200K~$400K |
| 엔진 단위 | 25MW(엔진4기=100MW) |
| AWS 희망(VP) | 2GW(비현실적) |
| AWS 현실 발주 추정 | ~500MW(~25%) |
| 브릿지 기간 | 3~5년(유틸 연결 전) |
| 레거시 OEM | GE, 미쓰비시(이미 입증, 6개월 자격 가능) |
| 신규 경쟁 | Weichai Power/PSI(3MW·중국산·백업용) |
| 인티그레이터 | Vertiv, Siemens(리스 루트) |
| Fuel cell | Bloom Energy(미국 백업, 한국 primary) |
녹취 원문 전체를 보존하고 STT 오류·고유명사만 교정(점선=교정, 형광=핵심)했습니다.
Um, hello?
Hello. Sorry for being late there. Had to get back to my office.
Oh, no. I'm totally fine. Thank you so much for taking the time for today's call.
Thank you.
So to briefly introduce about myself, my name is Eujung Lee, you can just call me EJ, from Moss Asset Management, and we are a hedge fund based in Seoul, Korea. And I'm currently doing a research on FTAI. And from today's call, I would like to better understand how hyperscalers like AWS is currently viewing FTAI's emerging power generation offering.
Since there has been a lot of investor discussion around FTAI's ability to serve AI data center demand, but it remains unclear where the company actually sits within the customer qualification process. Like what milestones-
Yeah.
...remain and how customers are evaluating its execution capabilities beyond... So, that's why I requested today's call.
Sounds great.
Yes, I can definitely speak on that. I think that we are overall pretty excited-
Mm-hmm.
...if FTAI could actually do what they say they can do. There's one of the things they mentioned is they can add another two to three gigawatts of capacity.
Right.
And as you're very aware, right, we're in a situation right now where my main constraint is power availability.
Mm-hmm.
And there is-- Even for, like, behind the meter, right?
Mm-hmm.
That's one of the things we've been looking into is behind the meter. And even for behind the meter, I have really long lead times for natural gas turbines and things of that nature.
Right.
So if we could get this extra capacity, it would be great.
Mm-hmm.
However, I will say, like, for us, we are working through a potential qualification process.
Uh-huh. Thanks. So I'm curious, like when did you first start reviewing this FTAI's aeroderivative engine solution? And like how long has this qualification process been going on?
Yeah. So we first started looking at it in Q3 of 2025. But the qualification process did not begin till Q1 2026.
Oh.
That's typically when we start qualification processes. Now, FTAI is a totally new-
Mm-hmm.
Will be a totally new supplier, so it's gonna take a longer time-
Oh.
...to get them qualified. And we're probably looking at somewhere between 13 to 18 months-
Oh.
...for full-
Oh.
Yeah, full qualification. And right, like FTAI is a very new company as well-
Right, right.
...um, with their TFM65 engine. So it's gonna take a longer time than it would for like, you know, if I was qualifying new things with like Mitsubishi-
Oh.
or GE or, or the like.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I see. But then, as you already mentioned, these other large OEMs, like somewhat established players, have-
Mm-hmm.
...their lead time is quite, like, several like years ahead.
Yes.
Whereas FTAI argues that their competitiveness comes from like the speed, speed to market.
Correct.
So-
No, but it's speed to market once they're qualified, right?
Ah.
And also, one of the things that we are concerned about, right, is that we're not the only hyperscaler they can potentially get to, right? They can get to other hyperscalers, and they also have a separate business, right? So FTAI is just not for-
Right.
data centers, right?
Mm-hmm.
They're for aviation-
Mm-hmm.
...and railroad, all those recipes hubs. So like we wonder, would they put data centers as a priority?
Mm.
And the other thing would be, you know, if we get into this market and we qualify them and... But let's say they're also qualified with Google or Meta, would those lead times just now resurface, but now just with this new vendor, right?
Mm.
So I think that right now, yes, that's what their competitive advantage is.
Mm-hmm.
But that could, in my eyes, that could easily change.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I see. Thank you.
So, since I'm not an expert in this like AI data center or this vendor management field-
Mm-hmm.
...so, for a new player like FTAI, is it normal, like is it like an industry standard to go through this 18 months of qualification process?
Well, it's like usually around, um... It could be shorter.
Oh.
But there... I should step back and say there's a two-pronged approach.
Mm-hmm.
So we could potentially not work directly with them, right? So we can work with them through an electrical integrator. So we can work with like a Vertiv or Siemens, and then Siemens or Vertiv are actually making the purchase, and then we're leasing the engines through a Siemens or a Vertiv.
So that's one model, and that's like usually the model that I like because I'm just leasing. I'm not actually owning this big CapEx, right?
Mm.
Because these are big, you know, gas turbines or-
Mm.
...big CapEx, and we usually would rather lease them. And in that scenario, right, that means like the speed would be dependent on how fast they could get qualified-
Right.
with these electrical integrators. However, we're stressing a constrained environment that like, hey, I need speed to power. I don't wanna maybe wait on the lease. I wanna buy direct. And if we're buying direct from the OEM, the fastest way that'd be potentially qualified would be like six months.
Oh.
But, uh, that would be with like a pretty established company. So like, uh, a good example would be Mitsubishi. Mitsubishi really also was not really in the data center market, but we were able to get them qualified fairly quickly, especially in our APAC region, to help us with gain power in our APAC region. So it's not impossible to qualify in under 12 months. It's just that typically that's the timeframe.
Mm, I see. Ah. So it seems that, uh, between those two options, uh, currently FTA is going through, uh, which model? Like which option?
I think they're gonna mostly go through the direct OEM model.
Oh.
Right? They have to establish relationships with electrical integrators.
Mm-hmm.
They will have to, uh, kind of, uh, confer to a lot of the, uh, things that the electrical integrators want to do.
Mm-hmm.
And I don't think that they will do that quite quickly. So like I think that they will go to that first model eventually, but at least for like their initial rollout of engines to, um, uh, you know, not just hyperscalers, but also like co-locations.
Right.
I think that they're going to do a lot of direct, you know, like direct OEM-
Mm-hmm.
... where we, uh, buy these turbines.
Directly.
But like buying them from a behind the market... excuse me, behind the meter standpoint.
Mm-hmm.
Where we know that like eventually we still wanna get on the grid, but it's gonna take, you know, years to get on the grid.
Right.
Um, then, um, as you mentioned, you first, uh, became aware, uh, of FTA starting, uh, second quarter of last year. And you-
So more like Q3, Q3 this year.
Oh, Q3. Um, so like second half of last year. And-
Correct.
... the actual, uh, qualification process started in first quarter of this year. Like, um-
Yes.
... uh, what, um, what, like, what... Is there, like, a moment that, um, made AWS, uh, aware of the, um... Like, is there a-
Oh, like-
... aha moment that AWS, uh, started to, like, review FTA more, like, seriously? Like-
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I think that, um, we-- So it's public knowledge, right?
Mm-hmm.
Public available information that last year, uh, well, uh, late last year, our CEO mentioned that we're gonna make huge CapEx investments into AI.
Uh-huh.
So I think that, like, once we had the increased, uh, budget for AI-
Uh-huh. Mm-hmm.
... we knew that we could have, like, an approach of don't leave any stone unturned, right?
Mm-hmm.
So we wanted to look at any behind-the-meter approach. 'Cause again, like previously, for behind-the-meter generation, we don't like to go, we don't like to work direct. But we saw that... And I think there's also, like, the market is shifting, right? We saw that Meta was doing that. So we said, "Hey, we have to do it too because otherwise we may be left behind if we're not developing these, uh, relationships directly with OEMs."
Ah.
And we saw that FTAI, uh, with their big pitch being they can bring speed to power.
Mm-hmm.
So that, you know, of course, that really intrigued us. Uh, so, you know, we, uh, start talking, uh, in Q4 2025, and then, uh, that fits through qualification process with our engineers and, you know, like, of course, like, drawing up the contract, legal things, all those things were really happening. Um, that's when we start to really get into it. But I think the real big driver for it is-
Oh.
... that we as a company want to get more power. And we are now looking at more unorthodox ways of getting that power.
Oh, that makes sense. 'Cause I was curious whether, um, as you are probably aware of, FTA, uh, announced that they are gonna enter this, uh, aeroderivative power engine business, like, late last year. And it seems that-
Yeah.
... they hired some ex-Blue Origin or AWS or Siemens experts into their power business.
Yeah.
So, um, I was curious whether FTA's, uh, stance has been more aggressive in terms of approaching this hyperscaler customers and, like, appealing their-
Yeah.
... um, like, capability in terms of this aeroderivative engine. Mm-hmm.
And I think not just them, but, um, uh, a lot of, like, power players in general have become more aggressive in the data center market because the data center market is a market that's really exploding.
Right.
Um, so, like, if you aren't investing into that market, I think a lot of the-
[laughs]
... a lot of engine makers and power generators-
Mm-hmm.
... uh, you know, you're losing a lot of potential demand-
Mm-hmm.
... um, uh, if you are, you know, in the more older businesses.
Mm-hmm.
So I think, um, one of the main things here was that, uh, FTAI team, like, saw that, and then they decided to kind of invest into it. Uh, 'cause it's, of course, what you mentioned. There was some R&D investment that had to happen. Um, and, you know, uh, working with people that know about the data center market, know the type of power we want to generate.
You know, like, a good example we use is we're moving to eight hundred volt power, and we need, like, data generation, uh, switches and modules, module architecture that can go from high voltage to low voltage.
Mm-hmm.
So those types of things, the things that, like, when we're doing this qualification process-
Mm-hmm.
... that's what we want to see.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that, like, I hope to see that, right?
Mm-hmm.
And, like, that's my expectation. But, you know, uh, all those things are predicated on them doing their initial R&D research.
Mm. I see.
Then, um, regarding this qualification, uh, like, process and stages, um, are there, like, somewhat, uh, established steps and criteria that AWS, uh, wants to see in order to-
Correct.
... uh, and what kind of steps does, uh, FTAI has to, like, prove? And currently, at which stage does, uh, FTA currently stay at?
Yeah. So right now they're at the very beginning.
Mm.
Um, and that's, like, drawing up a MSA, so, like, a master service agreement about, like, if we were-- Like, we're not guaranteeing any business, but if we were to do business with you, what would be the pricings? What would you be able to offer?
음.
그런 종류의 것들은 MSA(기본계약)에서 확립되어야 합니다. 왜냐하면, 아시다시피, 우리가 테스팅이나 그런 것들을 들여오기 시작하기 전에 말이죠.
우리는 MSA를 먼저 확립하고 싶습니다. 그래서 그게 첫 번째 단계이고, 지금 우리가 있는 지점이 바로 MSA를 확립하는 것입니다. 그들의 카탈로그가 무엇인지, 어떤 종류의 커스터마이징이 가능한지, 그런 것들을 이해하는 거죠. 그래서 우리가 당신들로부터 무엇을 얻을 수 있는지 이해할 수 있도록요. 그게 기본적으로 MSA가 하는 일입니다. 우리가 당신들로부터 무엇을 얻을 수 있는가? 어떤 종류의 합의에 서명하기를 원하는가?
나중에는, 그러니까 이 MSA는 그저 상위 수준의(high level) 합의일 뿐입니다.
오.
하지만 나중에는, 우리가 리스를 하고 싶은지 아니면 우리 자체적으로 하고 싶은지 같은 문제가 나오면, 더 장기적인 합의에 서명해야 할 수도 있습니다. 우리가 이걸 어떻게 하고 싶은지 말이죠. 그러니까 그게 첫 번째 단계입니다.
오.
두 번째 단계는, 우리가 합의한 SKU(품목)들에 대해, 어떤 종류의 커스터마이징이나 모듈형 아키텍처가 될 것인지입니다.
음-흠.
그래서 우리는 이해하게 됩니다. 자, 당신들은 25메가와트 엔진이 있나요? 50메가와트 엔진이 있나요? 더 작은 5메가와트 엔진인가요? 당신들이 어떤 사이즈의 엔진을 가지고 있는지요.
그것들이 고전압에서 저전압으로 변환이 가능한가요? 외함(enclosures)은 어떤가요? 당신들은 어디서 자재를 조달하나요?
음-흠.
그게 다른 나라에서 조달되나요? 여기서 조달되나요? 우리는 그 모든 것들을 알아야 합니다. 어떻게 우리에게 공급할 건가요? 설치를 위한 현지 관계가 있나요? 그래서 그게 두 번째 단계입니다.
음-흠.
그 다음 세 번째 단계는 우리 엔지니어들과 함께 실제 연결성과 우리가 전력이 필요한 곳을 이해하는 것입니다. 그게 여기 미국에 있을까요? 아르메니아에 있을까요-
오.
...유럽과 중동? APAC(아시아·태평양)에 있을까요? 당신들이 그런 지역들을 서비스할 수 있나요? 그리고 마지막으로, 우리는 실제 계약을 체결하게 됩니다-
오.
그래서 우리가 해당되는 경우, RMA(반품·교환 승인)를 결정할 수 있습니다. 만약 우리가 실제로 리스 경로 대신 구매 경로를 택한다면, 우리는 RMA를 할 겁니다. 우리는 이해하게 됩니다. 자, 우리가 커스터마이징을 할 수 있을까? 특히 우리가 그걸 구매한다면 말이죠. 우리는 보통 완전한 커스터마이징을 원합니다.
오.
그래서 우리는 그 모든 것들을 거쳐야 합니다.
그리고 그때 우리는 또한 서비스 계약이 무엇인지, 보증이 무엇인지, 실제 총소유비용(TCO)이 무엇인지에 대한 단계들을 갖게 됩니다. 그 모든 것이 그 네 번째 단계에서 확립될 것입니다.
음-흠.
그리고 다섯 번째 단계에서 우리는 실제로 테스팅을 하게 되는데, 실제 엔진을 구매하거나 리스해서 소량으로 테스트를 시작할 겁니다.
만약 모든 게 잘 작동하면, 그들은 자격을 갖추게 되고, 우리는 그들을 우리의 자격 벤더 리스트에 올리기 시작할 수 있고, 그러면 그들로부터 조달을 시작할 수 있습니다. 하지만 그건 5단계 프로세스입니다. 그래서 벤더를 완전히 자격 인증하는 데 일반적으로 시간이 걸릴 수 있고, 최대 1년 반까지 걸릴 수 있습니다.
음.
...그 전체 프로세스를 거치는 데 말이죠.
음. 오, 알겠습니다.
그러면, 기술 검토는 가장 마지막 단계에서 일어나는 것처럼 보이네요.
음-
아니면-
...더 정확히는 4단계와 5단계가-
4단계와 5단계.
...기술 검토 같은 거죠.
오.
네.
음-흠.
왜냐하면 기술 검토 중에는, 우리가 여전히 판단할 수 있거든요. 자, 그들이 그걸 통과 못 했지만, 그래도 다른 종류의 SKU로는 여전히 잠재적으로 자격 벤더나 공급업체가 될 수 있다고요.
음-흠.
어쩌면 그들은 그저 SKU를 바꾸거나 고치기만 하면 될 수도 있죠. 그래서 그게 그들을 경쟁에서 완전히 제거하지는 않습니다. 반면에 이 더 이른 단계의 것들, 즉 우리가 원하는 계약과 합의의 종류 같은 것들은, 잠재적으로 그 관계를 완전히 망가뜨릴 수 있습니다.
오.
그래서 우리는 그걸 일찍, 먼저 하고 싶은 겁니다-
오.
...엔지니어링이나 그런 것들과 함께 작업을 시작하기 전에요. 그래서-
오.
...우리는 먼저 그 관계를 확립해야 합니다.
오. 왜냐하면 저는 그 반대로 생각했거든요. 만약 FTAI가 이 기술 검토 프로세스를 통과하는 경우에만, 즉 FTAI가 은퇴한 엔진을 데이터센터 전력 솔루션으로 성공적으로 전환할 능력이 있다는 것을 성공적으로 보여줄 수 있는 경우에만, 그들이 이런 상업적 검토와 컨셉으로 넘어갈 수 있다고 생각했습니다.
음, 일반적으로 엔진의 경우, 우리가 랙용 부품 같은 것들에 대해 이야기하는 거라면 그게 맞을 겁니다.
오, 알겠습니다.
하지만 엔진의 경우는 좀 다릅니다.
오.
왜냐하면 우리는 리스를 할 수 있으니까요. 그래서 우리에게는 상업적 조건이 맨 처음에 훨씬 더 중요합니다.
오.
이 엔진들을 확보하는 리드타임이 얼마나 길 수 있는지 때문이죠-
음-흠.
...이 엔진들을 확보하는 데 말이죠. 결국 상업적 조건에 합의하지 못한다면, 우리가 그 모든 기술 작업을 거치는 건 말이 안 됩니다-
음.
...그건 몇 달까지 걸릴 수 있는 작업이니까요.
음-흠.
그렇게 하는 건 우리에게 이롭지 않을 겁니다.
하지만 반대 순서가 더 말이 됩니다. 이 가스 엔진 터빈들의 특성 때문이죠. 우리에게 또 다른 중요한 건 배출(emissions)입니다. 특정 주들은 배출 법규가 있거든요. 만약 이 엔진들이 천연가스로 작동하지 않고 다른 것, 즉 대체 연료로 작동한다면, 우리가 그 대체 연료를 확보할 수 있을까요?
그들이 우리가 그걸 조달하는 걸 도와줄까요? 이런 조건들이 우리에게 정말 많이 중요합니다.
오.
그래서 우리는 그들이 할 수 있는지 확실히 하고 싶은 겁니다. 자, 여기 우리 조건이 있습니다. 당신들은 우리가 가진 이 조건들에 동의하나요?
음.
그리고 만약 그렇다면, 좋아요, 이제 우리는 기술적인 작업을 시작할 수 있습니다.
오, 알겠습니다.
그러면, 이렇게 가정하는 게 안전할까요? FTAI가 엔진을 전환하는 작업을 성공적으로 실행할 수 있는지 여부의 문제라기보다는, 오히려 FTAI가 얼마나 협력하려 하고 이 AWS의 니즈를 충족시키려 하는지의 문제다-
맞습니다.
오.
그것과 확장성(scalability)-
확장성.
...이 두 가지가 우리가 FTAI에 대해 가장 우려하는 것들입니다. 그들이 우리가 원하는 조건에 부합할 수 있을까요? 특히 우리가 엔진 전체를 구매하는 소유 관계라면요. 그리고 두 번째로, 그들이 확장할 수 있을까요? 왜냐하면 저는 많은 양을 원할 수도 있으니까요.
Can they actually make to our volume that we would, that we would want? Or are they say, "Hey, you know, we, we..." Like, the volume that they can do is so small that like, oh, it doesn't even make sense for this technical process because they can only get us like maybe 100 megawatts of energy. Well, m- uh, which, which is good-
Okay.
... but like for me, that's not a lot. Like that might be great for like a co-location.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but that wouldn't be enough for me to, to, to maybe spend, right? Like for you, for us, right, we're spending resources and money and, and, uh, full, full-time employee hours to do this, uh, qualification process.
Oh.
So this qualification like, you know, I mean, typically for us, qualification can cost us up to like us up to $200,000 to $400,000. So-
Oh.
... w- with 100 megawatts of energy, it's worth $200,000 to $400,000.
Right.
But like for us, the time also-
Mm.
The time investment may not make sense, right?
Mm-hmm.
So like if, if we, if we see something like that, we might tell them like, "Oh, okay, we'll, you know, we, we won't work through qualifying you. We'll work through a, you know, we can work through a, either a, uh, electrical integrator to electrical integrator qualify you and to do the work. And you're only giving us a little bit of energy anyway, so like it doesn't make sense for us to work with a direct relationship together."
Oh.
Or maybe even, you know, like a distributor relationship that if we see like they can't scale, right, it, it doesn't make sense for us to have a direct relationship.
Mm-hmm. Mm. And I know it's too early, uh-
Mm-hmm.
uh, currently, but, uh, since, uh, you have been, since, uh, you mentioned that this MSA process, uh, already started.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, based on your observation and the current discussions y- uh, you're having with FTAI, how would you think of-
Mm-hmm.
their, um, like ability and willingness to, uh, meeting the, uh, meeting AWS requirements as well as, um, keeping up with the scalability that, uh, hyperscalers want?
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so right now at a very high, and this is of course, like we mentioned, very early-
Uh-huh.
... very high level right now.
Mm-hmm.
But we do believe that they can fit our requirements-
Mm.
... uh, at a very high level.
Mm-hmm.
Right? So a lot of the contract terms that we want-
Mm.
... and all those things, they're very amenable to those things.
Oh.
Uh, if we do a direct relationship.
Mm-hmm.
However-
Mm-hmm.
... I will say I am concerned about their, um, scalability.
Oh.
So, you know, one of the things that they quoted was they can get, they're gonna be able to generate three gigawatts annually. Right? They, they, they believe they can deliver that.
Mm-hmm.
And we're pretty skeptical [laughs]
[laughs]
... about that right now. Um, even if they can, right, you know, that would be divvied off between maybe many hyperscalers and co-locations and electrical integrators. So how much can they guarantee to us per year is concerning, right? Because again, right, if of that three gigawatts, you can only give me 100 megawatts-
Mm.
... that's maybe not worth it to me.
Mm.
Right? That's, uh, not a lot. That's, you know, maybe what? That's one third, one half of, well, half of one third, right?
Right. Right.
So I'm only getting 12% of what you're giving out to the entire market, which overall may be okay, again, if through a leasing agreement.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Um, but, uh, I, I definitely would be, uh... That, that's what we're skeptical of right now. We're skeptical of if they can actually meet that scalability, and we want ways for them to prove it.
Mm.
Then, um, I remember that FTAI promised delivering like two to three gigawatt per year by year 2027. So-
Correct.
Would AWS-
Which would be like around the time they'll be fully qualified if we use them, right?
Oh.
So like if we, we start the process right now-
Mm.
... by the time they're, they're like ready to go, it would be 2027.
Right.
So, um, I guess AWS would like to see whether FTA can, uh, successfully, like, have that two to three gigawatts of scale, and then, uh, like make the actual order?
Correct. Right.
Mm.
Because they're saying that their gas turbines can be 25 megawatts.
Right. Right.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
So 25 megawatts, that's if you do four of them, that's 100-
100.
... megawatts. So if I'm only getting 100 megawatts, that means I'm only getting four engines.
Mm-hmm.
That's not a lot for me.
Right. Right.
Right? I want more than just four. Uh, so yeah, so I think that for us, right, we want to see that, like, they can actually make that amount of value.
Mm.
Um, so that's gonna be work- that's gonna be one of the things that can have to work through that process. Um, and then, like also for us, like the, what we wanna see, you know, but this is gonna be more so... This is not commercial terms, so this is more like a technical thing-
Mm-hmm.
... that we, we'll have to discuss later. But, you know, they're, they're converting jet engines-
Right.
... right? So, right, war jet engines, they're converting those to, uh, uh, engines for data center power generation. Um, we want to see if that is even feasible, right? So that they have to show that in the market, right? So that's one of the things for us is like, it's not like an official term, but, like, we want to see them do this on a smaller scale to other players as well, right?
Mm-hmm.
Which is kind of counterintuitive, right? Because you think, oh, maybe Amazon wants to use all of their, like, you know, get all of their two gigawatts.
Yeah.
But we don't, right? We want also to see if, you know, in, in a pra- from a practical standpoint-
Mm-hmm.
... does this generate the amount of power that they think it can generate?
Right.
Then, uh, based on the current discussion that you're having with FTAI, um-
Mm-hmm.
... like, is there a rough timeline that FTAI promised that they can show some, uh, like signals or, uh, hints of them, uh, them that they can, uh, like, show this- feasibility in terms of converting those engine, as well as like, uh, uh, showing that they have the scalability?
Yeah. So, uh, they were thinking about, like, more so scalability right now. Like, I think that the, again, like... So I guess, like, the best way to think about it, first scalability. Can they scale? Um, can they show us, like, their production, all that?
Right.
That, that is Q4, early Q4 this year.
Ah.
Um, that they expect to be able to do that. Now, um, in terms of, like, actually showing it in the market, we expect to see that in Q1 2027-
Mm.
Where we actually see it in the market. And if we see that, then, like that, that was... Again, but that's more of a, on the technical end. That's when we start to get almost to the end of that qualification process.
Mm.
Um, so for, to answer your question of, like, Q4 for the, um-
Okay
actual scalability question, right?
Mm.
We wanna see the factories, we wanna see the production lines-
Right
... stuff like that.
Ah.
Uh, and then Q1 for, like, actually being in the market, and they're actually, like, selling it to other players.
Mm. And when you are, like, um, asking some, like, process or some possibility of FTA, like, uh, scaling their production facility as of now, like-
Mm-hmm
... what, what kind of feedback it, uh, does FTA, uh, give, give to you?
Yeah. So typically, uh, what they say is, like, "Hey, here, like, this was what used to be a aircraft engine production facility. It's now changing to a aeroderivative-
Right
... production facility." And they show, like, their plans. They show, like, how many, uh, components that they're making for the different engines per, uh, per week. And they basically just give, they just give us, like, uh, rundowns of what their production capacity is like-
Mm-hmm
... and things like that.
Mm. And I guess AWS is evaluating, like, other power engine solution vendors as well, including FTAI.
Oh, yeah. All the time.
Yes. And-
Of course, yeah.
Um, comparing, comparing, compared to, like, those other competitive-
Mm-hmm
... uh, providers, how do you think of FTA's, uh, like, um, arguments-
Their goals
... or, like-
Yeah. So-
As of now
... their, their pitch is different. Uh, you know, a lot of more legacy players, I guess, uh, so to speak, are... Right? They, they already can show, you know, that this is what they're doing, right? They already say, "Hey, I already make..." You know, like a, uh, a GE or a, uh, Mitsubishi, they already say, "Hey, I'm already making-
Right
... these things," right? So when, usually when they qualify something-
Mm-hmm.
... they're just qualifying, like, a bigger, a, a bigger turbine. Or, you know, another good example would be, like, a, uh, there's a China, a Chinese-based company called, uh, uh, Weichai Power, right? So, you know, they're, they're gonna have, like, smaller engines. They're only five megawatts. But-They, they, you know, they already do it. They just have it in China. So they have to prove that they can produce them in the US because we don't want to use China-based-
Mm-hmm
... engines.
Mm-hmm.
But like they're, they're... Usually like the use cases of what they're presenting is a little bit different than what FTAI is doing, which is saying like I can even... Like, I can be a player at all. And so their, their approach is different, so I will say that.
But I will also say that it's, it's not very data-driven like I would want it to be.
Oh.
Like I would want more data-driven, uh, information.
Mm-hmm.
When they talk about production capacity and scale, so I wish they could do that better. Um, and I w- and I want more maybe like tours of the factory and things like that-
Right
... so I can see things. Uh, which that's something like the other, um, the other players do. FTAI, I feel [chuckles] that they're a little bit secretive right now.
[laughs] Oh.
And, and, uh, uh, and that's always a, for me, a little bit of a, uh, red flag.
Oh. 'Cause I was also curious whether FTA actually showed their like the actual factory to the, to potential-
Just pictures
... vendors. Ah, only pictures.
Yes.
Oh. But is it possible to like actually gauge their, um, like production increase, like-
Right
... process o- through those pictures?
If they were more transparent it would be, right? You know, if they gave us more data, right? Or like even a baseline, right? 'Cause like when they give us data on their production, right, they do give us some data, right? But like I don't know what I'm comparing this to. They just say, "Hey, we increased, we're increasing our capacity by 25%. We're hiring these maybe more people. We're opening up these more lines." But like, okay, based on a baseline of what? Like, what is your comparison to? Like, are you comparing yourself to, you know, nothing? 'Cause you weren't doing any-
Oh
you know, data center things before.
Mm-hmm.
Are you basing your comparison based on when you were doing your airplane engines, which is not apples to apples comparison.
Oh.
Uh, or like, you know, they could at least compare itself maybe to other companies, right? They can say, "Hey, Mitsubishi's making these big 20, 10, 20 megawatt engines at a rate of X per year."
Mm-hmm.
"And we're gonna match that." Right? Like, so stuff like that is what I would want to see more of, and I don't think they're doing a, a good job of that. So like for me, like to be quite honest, right now it's very hard for me to gauge if they can meet our scale or like... Even for me at all, right? I don't-- I have no way of knowing of like, no good way of judging if they are, you know, are... If they're gonna actually meet those two gigawatt expectations.
Mm-hmm. Oh, interesting. Did, did, did FTA actually like, um, suggest like visiting their factory so that they can-
No.
No? Oh. Did-
I want to. If they ever suggested it I would love to go.
Oh. Ha- has AWS actually like requested such a factory visit?
We, we haven't requested yet.
Uh-huh.
Uh, because, you know, we've... We started the process in February. It's been four months.
Oh.
And we're just really trying to narrow down the master service agreement. Like, like, do they agree to the terms that we want?
Mm-hmm.
So before I even board, like before I would ask to go to a facility, I want to hash that out. But like if they were to, on the other hand, if they were to ask us, we would definitely, um...
We would, we would, we would definitely do it. Um, I would love to visit, uh, some of their facilities. Even if like, even if the facilities haven't been fully converted yet-
Right. Right.
... I would still love to see it.
Mm-hmm. Oh, and if you happen to visit their facility, um, can you also give a notice to the TIGA so that I can, uh, request a follow-up call to get a sense-
Yes.
... of like how they, uh, actually like advance their expansion capability?
Yes.
Oh, thank you. Um, and also, uh, are there any other like new entrants like FTAI that AWS is currently evaluating as a potential vendor, like besides FTAI?
Yes. So I mentioned, I mentioned one, uh, Weichai Power-
Oh, the Chinese.
... which is a China company. But you know, they, their US arm is going to be called Power Solutions International, or PSI.
Oh.
Um, but they're gonna make really smaller engines, right? Like three megawatt engines.
Oh.
So like they're gonna be mostly used for us for our backup power.
Oh.
Not for like primary power.
Oh.
Or, or even like, you know, like for, um, for, um, FTAI, we hope to use them as a bridge until we get connected to utility power. Where for PSI we're gonna be mostly just using them for like just backup power.
Mm-hmm.
But those are the... That's like a company that we're looking to qualify and, uh, use their, um, use their, uh, tur- their natural gas turbines.
Uh, of course, like I mentioned, what the issue is, is that, uh, PSI is now owned by Weichai Power, which is a China-based company.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, we always have some reservations about, um, Chinese manufacturers, especially when it comes to natural gas engines.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, we, we typically... If we get from APAC, right, it's usually like Japan-
Mm-hmm.
... or, uh, Korea. Uh, so like, and also, right, we are very, gonna be very cognizant of, like, tariffs, uh, if we get it from-
Oh.
... uh, China. Even though-
Right, right.
... right now I'm not too concerned about that.
Mm.
But it could be a concern in the future.
Mm. Then, um, if AWS is currently considering FTAI as a, a bridge power solution-
Mm-hmm.
... mean, does that mean that it is tailored for, like, a, a near-term capacity shortages, like, rather than a long-term strategy?
Well, well, no, I mean, right, so I guess, like, as a context.
Mm-hmm.
When I say bridge, this is gonna be a three to five-year bridge.
Oh.
Right? 'Cause that's how long it sometimes takes you to, for us to get connected to utility power.
Right. Right.
But that's always the long, the end goal, right?
Mm-hmm.
To get connected to utility power.
Mm-hmm.
But yeah, it, it would be a three to five year, uh, bridge.
Mm-hmm.
So I wouldn't call that short term.
Mm-hmm.
I would call it more midterm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. I see. Uh, then, um, if, if FTAI successfully expands their capacity into two to three gigawatt per year by year 2027-
Mm-hmm.
... um, how much of, uh, of a gigawatt power would AWS like willing to, uh, make an order? Like, if-
[laughs]
... if they successfully-
I, uh-
Like in a-
If I-
... in hundreds of-
Yeah.
... megawatt or, like, gigawatt-
If-
... size?
If, if I were... So of that three gigawatts, if I were to ask my, uh, vice president-
Mm-hmm.
... he would want me to get two gigawatts of it. [laughs] He would want, he would want us to get most, most of it.
Uh.
I just know that's not realistic, right?
Right.
'Cause we'd be competing with, uh, other players.
Uh.
But let's say, you know, like, this is hypothetical, right?
Right.
Let's say hypothetically speaking, uh, they pass all of our inspect- inspection.
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
We want to order from them directly.
Uh-huh.
And they're, like, perfect with everything in terms of engineering and scalability and scope. I would want to take two gigawatts.
Mm. And-
But I know that's, like, not realistic.
Uh.
But realistically speaking, I see us probably taking around 500 megawatts, which is probably like 25%.
Mm. Is, is it because, like, when you are talking with FTAI, uh, it seems that FTAI is also, uh, in a conversation with other hyper, other-
Oh, yeah.
... like, major hyperscalers as well-
Yes.
... and they are-
Which, which is a good-
Yeah.
... this is, it's, it's a good and a bad thing, right?
Mm.
It's a good thing because, like, if they're talking to other hyperscalers and other co-locations, that means that will... That tells me that, like, they are serious and also it shows, like, that, like, they would have to also prove it to these other players as well.
Mm.
So I mean, they're putting more and more into their R&Ds, right?
Mm.
So that's, that's the good thing.
Mm.
And of course, but the bad thing is that now, of course, we'll be competing just like we compete with all the other players. That's why, again, that's why I mentioned, uh, you know, one of the, the positives about FTAI is they're just saying that they're going to have really good lead times. But by the time 2027 rolls around, we can actually get orders.
It's probably gonna be long lead times [laughs] because all the other comp- players are gonna put in orders as well.
Mm.
And you know what's gonna happen, as we all know, is that they're gonna say, "Hey, we can deliver three gigawatts."
Mm.
But they're gonna allow orders for, like, five gigawatts.
Mm.
And they're gonna put people in back order and things like that, right?
Mm.
So, uh, even if everything goes perfectly, I still don't s- foresee us, um, getting, you know, everything that we want.
Mm. Then, um, do you know whether, like, a certain hyperscaler is more in, like, an, uh-
Yeah.
... in a more advanced-
Yeah, I'm, that I'm not sure of.
... process? Uh.
Right. I know we're probably pretty stringent, I will say, right? Like AWS with all, with our law team, our finance team, and the fact that, right, like for AWS, we're just not like a typical hyperscaler. We are more of a legacy hyperscaler.
Oh.
I'm sure in that, like we have not just AI ML, we have, um, networking, we have storage racks, we have all different types of racks. While I think, like, for Meta and Google or Grok, you know, emerging, emerging hyperscaler-
Oh.
... they're probably more willing to put money into CapEx, maybe more willing to expedite these processes.
Mm.
However, I'm, I'm not sure.
Mm. Uh, does FTAI give some hints, uh-
No.
... regarding, like, how competitive, like, other hyperscalers want it or want make their-
N- not yet.
Not yet?
I think they'll, they'll probably start doing that more so as we move along-
Mm.
... in the qualification process. But as of right now, they have not.
Mm. And, um, regarding the pricing of their engines, uh, do you think that-
Mm-hmm.
... the price range that they are currently offering is in a, uh, like industry average level, or is more like, um, at a higher, at a higher level?
Well, it's still negotiable right now.
Uh-huh.
But, um, right, right, right now they're about $15 to $16 million per unit.
Mm-hmm.
Which is the one... Like, 'cause I, I'd like to think about that price per megawatt. So their price per megawatt is not, is, is, is right on par. Maybe a little bit higher right now.
Mm-hmm.
But, you know, like again, we haven't had-- we don't have set prices yet.
Ah.
So, uh, when we get the set prices, I, I would say, you know, I could give a better idea. But at least for what they... Like at a high level, what they showed us already, the ASP, uh, per megawatt is gonna be on par with like a GE or Mitsubishi if we buy direct.
Mm-hmm.
Now if we lease it, it's gonna be a little bit different, but you always, you know, we always pay more per megawatt if you lease.
Mm-hmm. I see. So it seems that as long as FTAI can successfully show their, uh, manufacturing, uh, ca- expansion capability, then-
Mm-hmm.
... hyperscalers would, uh, willingly like place an order to FTAI?
It, it, again, it also comes to the terms, right?
Ah, yeah, the terms. Mm-hmm.
I, I... The, the thing is gonna-- the big thing is gonna be like do we buy purchases, do we lease? And then if we wanna lease, then are they-- do they have, um... Are they willing to work with our electrical integrators, right? So that's gonna be the big thing. Um, but in terms of if everything else goes good, then yes.
The only thing that would be the question is rent versus lease.
Mm-hmm.
Or excuse me, buy, buy versus lease.
Buy versus-
And if it's a lease-
Mm-hmm.
... then like they will have to take another step in working with our electrical integrators. Uh, not just for us, but like for other hyperscalers as well probably, you know, to work with their electrical integrators to make the purchase of the engine and then lease it to the hyperscaler-
Mm-hmm.
... or lease it to us.
Um, are you d- are you aware of like whether FTAI's current sales strategy is through only this direct purchase, uh, option? Or they're going, they are going for this, um, integrator, like through-- going through the electrical integrator, like sales strategy as well?
Yeah. I-- my, um... It, it, it really does depend on how, how they position their equipment.
If they see, if they position these as backup generatior- generators, then these will be, uh, owned, right? 'Cause I'm gonna own a backup generator. But if they say, "Hey, these are for behind the meters. These are things that we want you to have long term"-
Mm-hmm.
... then that's when we say we would rather lease. Because right, like I can then, uh, get rid of that CapEx, right?
I don't have any CapEx because I'm not buying it, right? So it, it, it really does depend on, um, how the structure would be in terms of the capacity structure, right?
Mm-hmm.
Is it gonna be something where we have energy as a service, which we will go through electrical integrator, or do we build our own microgrid, which I don't think we will. Uh, so like it depends on how we use the engine.
Mm-hmm.
If we use it as a backup, we will own it. If we use it as a bridge for our utility-
Mm-hmm.
... uh, we will, um, we will, uh, more than likely lease it.
Mm-hmm. I see. Then, uh, compared to those other OEM, uh, solutions and new entrants-
Mm-hmm.
... um, FTAI's, uh, advantage would be, uh, the speed, and also-
Yes.
... not coming from this Chinese, uh, like geo- geographical risks.
W- well, one other thing-
Mm-hmm.
... that is a potential, which we're still the early talks on, is that FTAI could potentially be their own electrical integrator. And, 'cause they own their own power-producing facilities, right?
Mm-hmm.
So what they can do is keep... You know, depending on where they are, right? They have a plant in Montreal, they have a plant in Miami.
What they could potentially do is, um, like basically, uh, have us sign a PPA, which is a power purchase agreement.
Mm-hmm.
When they say, "Hey, this power is available to you-
Oh.
... and we can generate the power for you in our facility." And then they're kinda acting as an electrical integrator. So like we're leasing it from FTAI directly.
Mm-hmm.
So they will own the-- they will continue to own the engines themselves-
Mm-hmm.
... but then we're paying them to lease it from them.
Mm-hmm.
So we're leasing the engine directly from FTAI-
Mm-hmm.
... and they're helping us with the electrical integration. But that will take a little bit even longer-
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
... to get that to be pulled through.
Um, so I, I, I, I would definitely say like direct ownership, um, is what we would probably have to do because it's faster.
Right.
Like ideally, I would want an indirect relationship-
Mm-hmm.
... but like more than likely, due to speed, I, I would probably have to buy the engine.
Mm-hmm.
And maybe one of the disadvantages that FTAI, uh, currently has would be some-- being somewhat secretive [chuckles] in terms of their, um, like scalability. Issue?
Yeah, at least for now.
Mm-hmm.
Right? And I, and I get it 'cause this is early, so right.
Right.
They, you know, they made a big claim, and they probably cannot back it up yet.
So they probably said, "Hey, let's, let's wait until we can actually back it up before we start to put more information to the market."
Mm.
'Cause, you know, that would, you know, that can change their stock price. [chuckles]
Right. But, um, six months already passed since their announcement-
Yeah. [laughs]
-of that, uh. [laughs]
Yeah.
So I was curious whether from hyperscaler perspective they, uh, you are seeing some of those like, um, mo- movements and progress-
No.
... in terms of their-
Uh, I, I ha- I have not. Um-
Oh.
... even talking to some peers, they have not.
Oh.
So it maybe, um... You know, I don't have any, uh, I don't know anyone at Groq. I don't know anyone at, um, at Google.
Mm-hmm.
So maybe they have better pathways-
Mm-hmm.
... uh, to it. But I know at least, uh, from my other peers that, you know, hyperscalers like Azure or, uh, Meta-
Mm-hmm.
... uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty much the same where, uh, not... It's not necessarily being secretive versus just that, like, they haven't given us a lot of new information.
Information. Mm-hmm.
Then is it, uh, is it normal for like hyperscaler to enter this MSA, um, sta- stage, like process?
Yeah.
Even though-
So this is like-
... the vendor-
This is where we would discover these things, right?
Oh.
When we go to... When we're entering these MSA discussions-
Mm-hmm.
... it's when we, that's when we uncover a little bit more information.
Mm.
That's like, that's what this process, at least for, you know, here-
Mm.
... that's what the process is for.
Oh.
Uh, to kind of get that, to get that discovery-
Mm-hmm.
... uh, going. And, and again, like it's only been four months, but like we are working through the terms. And then like I mentioned, the second step we'll get even more information.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, 'cause we'll have to... We'll start to get them to do some type of sup- supply commit.
Oh. I see. Oh. Uh, thank you so much for your, um, information and insight. Um, it was very helpful. And if you happen to get any updates regarding, uh, FTA's like execution, um, I will highly appreciate if you give a notice to the plat- Tiga's platform so that we can arrange a follow-up call.
Yes.
Okay.
Yes. Uh, yeah, I might hear something new, uh, in Q3, so maybe in August, uh, I can, uh, let them know that I got some new information.
Okay, great. Oh, and for a last comment, are, are there any comments that you would like to add on that, uh, that I should be aware of regarding FTAI or-
I, the-
... about this industry in general?
I think the only, I think the only thing would be, I would want any- anyone that's looking into this market to, to really, uh, dive deep into like how much the cost of natural gas will cost. Like, how much would be the cost of natural gas? Because that's like a big thing too, right? If, if the cost of natural gas increases, hyperscalers like us are gonna look for other solutions.
Mm.
Because the cost of the natural gas, it could be, will really drive up the cost. Which again, cost is not a big thing versus speed.
Mm-hmm.
But if there are any emerging things like fuel cells-
Right.
... and, um, batteries, uh, that means I, I would still, again, I would still use natural gas, but maybe I'm not using natural gas as much as a backup power anymore.
Mm-hmm.
And now I'm only using it to bridge the gap, which means that, hey, in six or seven years when I get on the utility-
Mm-hmm.
... maybe I don't need natural gas turbines anymore.
Mm.
But of course, though, th- and that's really far out, but that would be my only other comment.
Mm. And, uh, speaking of the fuel cell solution, um-
Mm-hmm.
... is, is Bloom Energy's solution one of the options that AWS is, um-
Yes, but only for backup power.
Oh, only for a backup power, but not yet a primary.
Yeah, like it's another bridge if I'm not on the utility. So really Bloom only works... We only, we only can use it really if we are already on a utility or we're already using natural gas turbine as our primary power.
Oh.
So fuel cells at least, at least right now-
Uh-huh.
... except in South Korea. In South Korea we do sometimes use fuel cells as primary power.
Right. Right.
At least in the US. In the US fuel cells are only backup power.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Is it because of the cost, cost, uh, component that is blocking-
No, the efficiency.
Efficiency.
Natural gas is just more efficient.
Uh-huh. Oh.
Um, and as we move to more and more powerful GPU, we want to be most efficient with our power as possible. And by efficiency I mean, uh, that like, uh, natural gas has a lower chance of going out, and natural gas, at least for right now, creates less thermal energy. So that means there's less thermal energy you have to dissipate from the, uh, server racks.
Mm.
So it's, it's just natural gas, uh, turbines are just more efficient and faster right now.
Mm-hmm. But then like other data centers like Oracle, they also announced that they would start utilizing this-
Yeah, fuel cell.
... fuel cell as-
Yeah.
... in a gigawatt like size.
Yes. 'Cause it is something that's emerging, right?
Oh.
I don't think that, um, I don't think that like it'll always be backup power.
Mm.
I think that like eventually we could potentially use it-
Mm.
... as a primary power. It's just that like fuel cells are so nascent.
Oh.
Like right now I don't think anyone is running fuel cells as primary power except for markets that they have to.
Mm.
Like again, like in South Korea-
Mm.
... or like congested markets like Tokyo.
Uh-huh.
You have to be fuel cell because there's not, there's not enough grid power to connect to.
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I see. Ah. Well, thank you so much for your time today.
All right. Thank you.
Thank you.
Have a good rest of your day.
Have a good rest of your day too. Bye.
Bye. [phone dings]